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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:40 pm 
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Hi Vesselin,

yes, you are right. Everything is not inline. My suggestion to 3.) is wrong. There seem to be no possibility of copying and editing at all. It seems like you have to determine the distances from top and left of the page more or less by hit-and-miss and then have to program each new "table row" from scratch with divs.

Regards
Mick


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:06 pm 
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Hi Mick,
If a table has been converted in Floating mode, then it has only width/height, but it doesn't have top/left distances. In floating mode cell boxes (DIV elements) are just stacked one after another inside the table. The floating takes care of aligning the floated boxes.

If you see that a cell DIV has left/top properties this means that the table has been converted in Absolute mode. The Floating/Absolute setting in the [Tables] tab is just a recommendation to Table2CSS. For some tables it will switch to Absolute mode even though the user has specified Floating mode for the page.

This happens if the table has at least one cell that has a "colspan" attribute and at least one cell that has a "rowspan" attribute. In these cases it is not possible to represent the table cells with Floating attributes, so Table2CSS has no other option than to switch to Absolute mode for that table alone.

If there is a table that uses only rowspans or only colspans, then it is fine - Table2CSS will be able to use Floating mode for the table. However both colspans and rowspans mean that Absolute mode will be used for that table.

There is one exception though - if the table uses both rowspans and colspans but all of the rowspans are in the first column then Table2CSS will be able to use Floating mode for that table.

All of the above limitations are actually not caused by Table2CSS but rather they are inherent to the CSS 2 standard. Even if one were to design the tableless page manually instead of using Table2CSS he would still be subject to these limitations. There is no easy way to maintain browser compatibility and implement complex tableless layouts without using Absolite positioning in some cases.

Of course there are quite a few possible optimizations that should be implemented, e.g. in some cases tables with a single row and cell don't need the 3 DIVs they are using now. We will be working in the future to implement these optimizations. However the more complex a page is, the more complex a tableless layout becomes. It doesn't matter if it is created manually or by an automatic program like Table2CSS.

Best regards,
Vesselin


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:45 am 
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Hi Vesselin,

thanks, I think I got it. To cut a long answer short: That's why it would be nice to have the possibility of leaving some table structures intact. HTML programming is just easier that way and for small sites better than dynamic programming.
Sometimes my clients want to change their pictures and picture text themselves - in Greek and whatever languages. That is also much easier, better and cheaper done with Adobe Contribute than with a dynamic php site and Joomla or a custom programmed backpanel for a dynamic site in aspnet.

That was the easy one, now comes the more difficult one (Thanks for your patience anyway!):
After converting the whole site with Table2CSS I found some other differences between the "old" and the "new" pages, which I can't really explain:

1. At http://msmarketing-hellas.com/hostdesign.html the characters on the left side below "On the web ..." are very small. It seems that your program does not like (old style) relative size definitions of characters like "x-small". When changing the definition of "style8" from the msm_style.css file into "13px" it works.

2. At http://msmarketing-hellas.com/pricing.html in the original file "style4" is used. It defines the characters as follows:

.style4
{
font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 13px;
color:#ffffff;
}

Unfortunately the whole page text is displayed bold. There are some headlines which have the <b> or <strong> definition. DW CS4 tells me, all tags are closed correctly.

Maybe you know what to do?

Friendly regards
Mick


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:28 pm 
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Hi Mick,

0. We'll add the ability to leave tables in their original non-converted state. Actually I will add this option to the DOM viewer today and will let you know when the new download is ready.

However I would say that for galleries like the one at
http://ferienhaus-auf-kreta-mieten.com/index.html
it should be possible to convert the page in Floating mode and then edit that page by adding new content. You said that "things go gaga" when you try to edit that page. Can you clarify what kind of problems do you see when you try to add more images/descriptions?

1. The problem at http://msmarketing-hellas.com/hostdesign.html
I tried converting the page but did not see the problem with font sizes that you mentioned. I used FF3.0 and IE8 and both displayed the page correctly. Can you please send me screenshots of that page before and after the conversion. Send them to support@table2css.com - I would like to take a look in order to get a better idea of the problem.

2. Same for the problem with http://msmarketing-hellas.com/pricing.html
On my computer that page looks identical before and after the conversion. I would like to see screenshots before and after the conversion.

Best regards,
Vesselin


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:36 pm 
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Hi Mick,
For your information - Table2CSS 3.5.0 is available for download from the customer area. It has an extra "Table conversion" property for TABLE tags in the DOM viewer, so you can enable/disable conversion on a per-table basis.

Also it is possible to remove multiple files at once from the source files/urls list.

Best regards,
Vesselin


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:59 pm 
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Hi Vesselin,

at http://ferienhaus-auf-kreta-mieten.com/index.html when you copy the first (former) table row into an empty space directly after the copied row just takes over the original row which should come after the first one, i.e. instead of having 4 rows you still have 3, the second being a duplicate of the first.

I have sent you the 2 screenprints of http://msmarketing-hellas.com/hostdesign.html and http://msmarketing-hellas.com/pricing.html after the conversion with following parameters:

Force standards mode = yes
CSS file location = {FILE}.css
merge external CSS files = not checked
Collect dimension styles = checked
Default line Height = empty

The original files can be viewed at the links above.

Thank you for the new version. I'll check it out later tonight or tomorrow morning.

Friendly regards
Mick


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:28 pm 
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Hello Vesselin,

I am still checking out the new version.

It works fine on first sight. The double click feature helps a lot. But it does not seem to do what I would like it to do.

I think because the - let's call them - "picture tables" are embedded into converted = fixed tables in height, I run into problems again when I want to add tables or table rows. I did not do that yet, but I turned the second table which has 2 rows into 2 tables with one row each.
The result is a page where the 2 pictures in the last table below (former second row of the second table) are missing the lower part.

It seems that I have to leave the whole left side of the page unconverted.

Friendly regards
Mick


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:03 am 
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Hi Mick,
I checked the web page at
http://ferienhaus-auf-kreta-mieten.com/index.html
You are right that the lower row overflows the fixed cell and thus is hidden by the browser. In order for the images to be visible you must make their DIV container (former TABLE) expandable, that is remove the "Fix height property for its container". However you must also make all parent containers to have non-fixed heights, because if the parent containers have fixed heights then the expandable DIV will overflow and it will be cut off pretty much like the bottom image cells are cut-off now.

I added an extra setting in the DOM viewer which is called "Propagate upwards". It is an option of the DOM viewer - double-clicking on a TABLE/TD/TH tag will open the settings window for that tag and "Propagate upwards" will be there.

So my suggestion for making the table expandable is as follows:

1. Download the newest version which is 3.6.0 - it is available from the customer area as usual.
2. Start the conversion as usual and open the DOM viewer.
3. In the DOM viewer find the innermost table which contains the image gallery.
4. Double click on that table and uncheck the "Fix heights" property. After that check the "Propagate upwards" box. Then click the [Update] button.
5. After that continue the conversion as usual.

I tried the above and after the conversion tried duplicating the first line of images and the containers resized correctly. Please let me know how it works for you.

Regarding the font issues - I received the screenshots of the converted pages that you sent me - thank you. However I still cannot see what is wrong with them. Actually I would say that they look exactly like your original page looks in IE8 on my computer :-)
So please send me screenshots of the original pages too - I would like to compare the original look with the converted ones.

Best regards,
Vesselin


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:23 am 
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Hi Mick,
I checked the issues with fonts/font sizes on several computers and I couldn't reproduce them but I am more or less sure that that they are somehow related to the way your IE8 is configured.

Can you please start IE8 and then load the original page at
http://msmarketing-hellas.com/hostdesign.html
Then while the page is loaded please write down and let me know the following information:

1. What is the selected value in the View/Zoom menu?
2. What is the selected value in View/Text_Size ?
3. Press F12 and a new window will open (the title is "Developer Tools"). On the top menu line of that window there are several menu items. One of them is "Browser mode: XXXXXXXXX" and another one is "Document mode: XXXXXX". What are the exact values in place of "XXXXXXXXX" for the browser and document modes?

Best regards,
Vesselin


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:07 am 
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Hi Vesselin,

first of all thanks for checking.

I checked myself another time. I have the same differences in size on the left side text in both files with Firefox and Opera. I still think it has something to do with relative size definitions of characters like "x-small". If I change it to 13px, the size is displaying properly.

In MSIE8
View/Zoom = 100%
Browser Mode = Internet Explorer 8
Document Mode = Quirks Mode (Page Default)

Regards
Mick


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:33 am 
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Hi Vesselin,

concerning the new version and the "ferienhaus-auf-kreta-mieten.com" index page, I can add now new series of images and leave tables intact.

1. But the whole page seems somewhat vertically distorted in all browsers. There seem to be spaces between the tables where there are none. This phenomenom is independent of leaving tables intact or not.

2. E.g. on the left side I followed instructions and did not convert tables, on the right side I left the divs intact.
Unfortunately the round corner background image "4_back2.gif" which comes after the text part "sauber und gepflegt sein." is not visible as bottom in all browsers. The cell seems to have the wrong height.

In the original version the background image is visible.

It may have something to do with the fact that the lower part of the right side of the page is just a table row and not a separate table. I am not sure what to do in this case in the DOM viewer to make the gif visible.

Friendly regards
Mick


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:05 pm 
Hi Mick,
It is pretty strange - the IE8 settings are pretty much the same as the ones on my computer. Anyway - can you please also let me know the following:

1. In IE8 - what is the setting of View/Text_Size ?
2. Which screen resolution are you using?
3. If you right-click on the desktop, then go to Properties, then click on the [Settings] tag and then click the [Advanced] button, what value is selected in the [DPI Setting] drop-down?

Best regards,
Vesselin


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:08 pm 
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The last message from Guest was actually mine. Also there is one another setting that I would like to know:

4. If you right-click on the desktop, then go to Properties, then click on the [Settings] tag and then click the [Appearance] button, what value is selected in the [Font size] drop-down?

Best regards,
Vesselin


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:09 pm 
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Hi Vesselin,

I'm back.

IE8 View text size = Medium
Screen resolution on the main monitor = 1920 x 1200, on second monitor = 1280 x 2024
In Windows 7 the dpi setting is different to find. It is 100% in that ruler with dropdown menu.

Regards
Mick


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:56 pm 
Hi Mick,
OK, thank you for the information - the 100% in Windows 7 corresponds to 96 DPI, so it is not the cause of the problem.

Can you please also let me know the default font size on your computer?
If you follow the steps outlined here until step 5, you will reach the font-size menu dialog:

http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/11 ... hange.html

Also please email me (at support@table2css.com) the converted files (both HTML and CSS) for the page at
http://msmarketing-hellas.com/hostdesign.html
I would like to take a look at the HTML/CSS code to see if the problem happens during the conversion or afterwards when it is displayed on your computer.

Best regards,
Vesselin


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